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Assisted Suicide Advocate Jack Kevorkian of Royal Oak Dies at 83
Longtime resident was a lightning rod for controversy and a familiar face around town.
Jack Kevorkian in his 1996 interview with "60 Minutes."
60 Minutes via YouTube
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Assisted suicide advocate Dr. Jack Kevorkian of Royal Oak died at Beaumont Hospital, Royal Oak this morning after being hospitalized with kidney, liver and respiratory problems off and on for several weeks. He was 83.
Kevorkian first made headlines for his right-to-die stand in 1990 when he assisted in the death of Janet Adkins, who had Alzheimer’s disease. The former pathologist admitted to assisting in an estimated 130 deaths from 1990-98.
More recently, he served eight years of a 10- to 25-year sentence in the 1998 death of Thomas Youk, who suffered from Lou Gehrig's disease. He was released from prison in 2007 and returned to live in an apartment in Royal Oak, where he was frequently seen at his favorite restaurants and shops.
Kevorkian's niece, Ava Janus, of Troy, said she was by her uncle's side during a brief recovery at Beaumont and when his health began to fail. The downturn of her uncle's condition came as a shock to him and the family, she said.
"He was very aware of what was happening," Janus said. In his final days, her uncle made his final wishes with his attorney.
"I'm going to miss him," Janus said. "From his perspective, I'm glad he is gone, it didn't take very long and he didn't have to suffer. That's what he wanted for himself and anyone in pain."
Memorial services hadn't been finalized, family said Friday evening.
Kevorkian's attorney, Mayer Morganroth, didn't return calls for comment Friday.
'A selfless hero'
"He embodied the true American spirit of doing what's right regardless of cost to himself," Clawson resident Kimberly Middlewood said after hearing the news of Kevorkian's death. "I hope he is remembered as a selfless hero who served eight years in prison as the result of ending suffering."
Raising awareness
Not everyone agree with Kevorkian's ideas, let alone his methods.
When Kevorkian was released from prison, he vowed not to assist in any more deaths. Still, the National Hospice and Palliative Care Organization took the opportunity to restate its position on end of life care, saying:
As an organization, NHPCO does not support Kevorkian’s methods or practices. The organization does recognize the role he played in bringing debate about end of life issues to national attention. Kevorkian was intent on finding a better way to relieve suffering at the end of life. NHPCO believes that quality hospice and palliative care services can meet the needs of patients and their families that are dealing with the challenges of life-limiting illness.
Yet Kevorkian had a positive and a negative impact on the discussion about hospice and end of life care, said Deanee Mauser, the administrative director of Beaumont Home Care and Hospice and a registered nurse.
"He raised awareness of end of life issues," she said. "For some people the lines were blurred. They thought hospice was assisted suicide ... We have had people call and ask for physician-assisted suicide."
Hospice provides end of life care, including managing pain, anywhere the patient resides – including at home or in the hospital – if the patient or family requests it and the cases meets certain criteria.
"We did not receive a referral for Dr. Kevorkian," Mauser said.
Fieger remembers favored client
Attorney Geoffrey Fieger, of Bloomfield Hills, defended Kevorkian through seven murder cases, six of which went to trial. He held a press conference at his Southfield office this morning and gave an emotional tribute to Kevorkian.
"Through his courage and determination he shined a light on a right that I believe, he believed, and I think most of us believe that we hold innately, that tens and thousands of people now are no longer abandoned to suffer until dead because of his convictions and his courage," Fieger said.
"I personally will miss him."
Resident shakes up Royal Oak
Royal Oak resident John Schultz remembers sharing a wall with Kevorkian in downtown Royal Oak when Schultz was an editor for the Royal Oak Mirror.
Kervorian lived in an apartment building on Main Street that was between Mr. B's and the building at Third and Main, said Schultz, now the managing editor at DBusiness magazine based in Royal Oak. "The Mirror offices were in that building and my office and Jack's apartment shared a wall," he said. "I would hear Jack in his apartment doing dishes or moving around, playing flute, etc. We would run into each other occasionally in the adjoining entrance. We would chat, but he never would discuss what he called 'his business.'
"One night I worked late to around 3 a.m. on page proofs for The Mirror. I went home for a couple hours of sleep before the printer came the next morning. I came downtown to the office around 8 a.m. and the place was surrounded with media trucks and reporters from all over.
"I asked what was going on and found out Dr. Kevorkian had performed an assisted suicide the night before – and I was three feet and a wall away working on the page proofs and didn't hear a thing!"
It was the first assisted suicide in Kevorkian's apartment, noted Schultz, also the co-author of Images of America: Royal Oak. The previous assisted deaths were performed in Kevorkian's van. "From that point, downtown Royal Oak was a buzz with folks wanting to get a glimpse of him or his apartment," Schultz said.
The apartment building was torn down a couple years later for Mr. B's to expand.
'You Don't Know Jack'
Kevorkian returned to the public eye again a couple of years ago when HBO made the movie You Don’t Know Jack about the former pathologist's crusade for what he called the right to a dignified death for the terminally ill and suffering. It aired on HBO in April 2010.
Actor Al Pacino, who played Kevorkian in the movie, paid homage to Kevorkian when he won an Emmy for the role in August. "To have had the pleasure to try to portray someone as brillant and interesting and unique as Dr. Jack Kevorkian … Thank you Jack!" Pacino said in his acceptance speech at the Emmy awards, at which Kevorkian was a guest.
Reporter's tale: 'I think he viewed himself as a martyr'
Steve Huber is a 54-year-old former reporter who covered Kevorkian. He said Friday that he remembers meeting Kevorkian in 1990 as the retired pathologist was just starting his crusade for assisted suicide.
Huber, now the marketing and communications officer for Oakland County who lives in Grand Blanc, was covering a trial for which a quadriplegic was trying to get a court order to end his life. The man, David Rivlin, said he had been contacted by Kevorkian.
Huber met with Kevorkian at a Chinese restaurant. “He just seemed to be a quirky old dude who had some radical ideas,” Huber recalled.
That initial meeting soon led to one of the most fascinating stories Huber ever covered.
A reporter at the Oakland Press for 18 years, Huber covered all of the trials that led to Kevorkian’s 10- to 25-year sentence for second-degree murder.
“I recall when he was actually convicted,” Huber said. “His sister was in the courtroom and I was sitting behind her. She looked stunned.”
Huber described Kevorkian as belligerent. “He wasn’t rude or anything like that, but when you got him talking, he had strong opinions about law and medicine and how he always referred to people being in the dark ages,” he said. “I think he viewed himself as a martyr.”
Besides the trial that led to his conviction, Kevorkian was charged four other times, which resulted in three acquittals and a mistrial. For the last trial, Kevorkian decided to represent himself. Therefore, it was no surprise that he lost, Huber said.
“He thought he could get through it just because he was Jack Kevorkian,” Huber said. “He believed he was right. There are a lot of legal barriers, and he was not equipped to handle that.”
– Lara Mossa and Kevin Elliott contributed to this report.
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Jesse Williams
11:52 am on Friday, June 3, 2011
Dr. Jack was a great man, a great doctor, and a great artist. He will be missed.
Mark Conner
5:44 pm on Thursday, January 12, 2012
i remember hearing a funny quote on a letterman top 10 list during jacks first trial. they said he was trying to get a change of venue to the back of his van. LMAO!!
D
12:30 pm on Friday, June 3, 2011
I searched this article for anything related to Dexter. I didn't find anything.
Bryce
9:41 pm on Friday, June 3, 2011
Could I borrow some of your spare time. It appears you have too much of it.
Daniel Lai
12:56 pm on Friday, June 3, 2011
When there is a national news story of prominent importance, we will include it on Dexter Patch.
D
8:14 pm on Friday, June 3, 2011
I had to go back to May 2 to find another article with no Dexter/Chelsea connection (unless you count two separate articles on the same cemetery in Oakland Township). The May 2 article reported the death of Osama bin Laden.
Greg Thrasher
4:03 pm on Friday, June 3, 2011
Dr. Jack,
Was a post -industrial serial killer protected by the fog of a byzantine legal system which he exploited to serve his twisted agenda..I met him many times what a strange creature he was in the flesh...It is surreal observing a human being engaged in this behavior and then promote it as a progressive movement..Of course Jack would never entertain the notion of using his "killing machine " on himself..
Nabil
12:34 pm on Saturday, June 4, 2011
Greg ! You sound like a radical extremist. Have you considered signing up with the Talibans ? Accusing " Dr. Jack" of being a serial killer is offensive as serial killers take lives without the consent of their victims which was hardly the case in this particular case.
drs
6:07 pm on Saturday, June 4, 2011
The people chose to leave this world, he did not put a gun to their heads. Greg, a lot of civilized countries now allow this. Do some research and listen to those that really knew the guy and how much he was loved. Peace.
Kathy Phillips
10:08 am on Sunday, August 28, 2011
If Jack was a serial killer than so are all veternarians. No one questions putting an animal down so it won't suffer.
carrie chambers
4:55 pm on Friday, June 3, 2011
Greg, His "agenda" was to take away the pain of his patients that had lived with and would also die from. I dont think someone is a serial killer concidering this was something his patients wanted, not Mr. Kevorkian. As far as I have heard, he (Jack) was going to be getting out of the hospital soon and was getting better. He didnt use his "killing machine" on anyone unless it was terminal.
And maybe he thought you were a strange creature too. Nothing like kicking a man when he isnt even with us anymore.
Just sayin.
Libby Turpin
11:13 pm on Friday, June 3, 2011
Not everyone will agree with Jack's philosophy or his practices, but let us not forget he is a human. In the name of humanity, he was brave enough to fight for something he believed in. In the name of humanity, I wish I encountered more people in this world who would fight for what they believe in, rather than complaining about the wrongs in society. You don't have to agree with them, but any human deserves respect.
carrie chambers
1:36 pm on Saturday, June 4, 2011
Libby great point, I completly agree.
Christopher
9:46 am on Monday, June 6, 2011
"Any human deserves respect"
Really? I bet we can think of dozens of specific human beings who don't (Hitler is an easy one), and dozens of catagories of human beings who don't (child molesters).
I think it's intellectually lazy to repeat these mushy platitudes.
By the way, I'm not really sure how I feel about Jack. I think technology has gotten us to a place where we are prolonging suffering for the sake of the living who don't want to deal with the death of a loved one, but at the same time I feel that taking a human life is a very serious thing and ought not be done lightly.
jodi
12:12 am on Saturday, June 4, 2011
if it was me....id hope for a man like jack kevorkian to be there. I saw my grandmother SUFFER and would not like to suffer the same fate...if you dont believe in it simply dont take advantage....suffer your own way....its what makes the world go around....MY opinion, as Libby said IN THE NAME OF HUMANITY, he helped A LOT of people who ASKED for his help ...I'm very sorry to hear of his death
Joe Papierz Jr
5:52 pm on Thursday, January 12, 2012
Instead of asking for a Kervorkian ending to life any patient has the right to refuse extrordinary measures to preserve or resusitate their life in the last days of their terminal illness. They can die in peace in a hospital bed with appropriate pain killers to be comfortable surrounded by family members if they wish.
Chuck Anesi
1:06 am on Saturday, June 4, 2011
Interesting that he didn't off himself when he realized -- as he apparently did, according to his daughter -- that his condition was hopeless.
Jen
3:09 pm on Wednesday, June 8, 2011
I don't know why that keeps getting thrown up. He wanted people to have a choice, a choice to end suffering. He didn't want to end his that way.....why should he have to? I don't agree with his methods, I don't agree with how he went about it, but doctors for years have been giving just a bit too much morphine....maybe a bit sooner than they should....family members trip over a cord....
I do believe life begins at conception and ends with natural death...that's my belief. I don't get to push that on anyone else. Even if I disagree with them.
Kathy Phillips
10:09 am on Sunday, August 28, 2011
Maybe he wasn't in any pain.
John McKay
3:07 am on Saturday, June 4, 2011
@D:
As Daniel mentioned, we will publish national stories if it hits home enough for our readers. This story was published across ALL of our Michigan sites after Dr. Kevorkian died, same with Osama's death. His patients (of which there are apparently more than 100) have been from throughout the state, and they presumably have families and friends throughout the state. It's a relevant regional story. If there is a local connection, we'll definitely try to find it, but it is also compelling to get the local reaction. This particular story originated on the Royal Oak Patch, in the town where Dr. Kevorkian lived.
With the Osama story, that was a story with worldwide relevance and again, it's interesting to get local perspectives. I happened to be in NYC the moment they announced he was killed, so I was able to write a first-person account of what I saw for my own site (Plymouth Patch, on which this story also is published) and Fenton Patch, in the city where I was raised.
As for other stories from neighboring towns, we have the ability to share our stories with neighboring Patch sites. For instance, my geography runs into Canton and Northville, so if I do a story on an issue that can affect Canton or Northville residents, too, they will share the story with their readers because, chances are, they're just checking their city's site.
As for Oakland Township, it has its own Patch and the story might have been relevant. Hope that helps clear things up!
D
4:00 pm on Saturday, June 4, 2011
Thank you for the detailed reply.
Dee Chavez
12:29 pm on Saturday, June 4, 2011
How many of you have watch someone facing death and or actually dying? Ok....how many of you have worked with MANY people facing death and or actually dying. I am a nurse. I can see in myself the empathy for those suffering and sometimes ask myself if I could bear the suffering if it were me. Not all death is painful, but for many it is extremely painful... mentally, emotionally, spiritually and physically. The pain, in some form, can be continual. We all have to deal with it someday.... I pray I don't have to go through the agony of the mental and emotional of an impending death. I pray I don't have to go through the pain of physical death. I pray that I am spiritually ready for my death. Please, Lord, take me quickly.
carrie chambers
1:43 pm on Saturday, June 4, 2011
Dee it takes a special person to do what you do, not everyone can handle that (me included).
Thank you.
RJL
1:09 pm on Saturday, June 4, 2011
my exit is my business and no one elses!!!
carrie chambers
1:38 pm on Saturday, June 4, 2011
I wish there was an "agree" and "disagree" button for each comment that is made.
Rebecca Young
6:53 am on Sunday, June 5, 2011
I Love Dr. Jack. I was sad to hear he left us. I am a nurse & I see suffering people kept alive by modern technology. They want to go & cannot. I have my Advanced Care Plan & Power of Attorney in effect in case I end up like that. And, Many Health Care Professionals are Cruel & Uncaring. I have seen terrible things done to patients who cannot speak for themselves. RIP, Jack... Later!
Rebecca Young
7:10 am on Sunday, June 5, 2011
Oh, & , GREG, I notice by your photo, you are African-American? A person of color anyway. I want to remind you of a quote by another person I dearly love. Maybe? You will recognize it. Here goes! "IF A MAN DOESN'T HAVE A BELIEF TO DIE FOR, HE ISN'T FIT TO LIVE.", DR. MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR. I Love You, Martin & I Know You Love Me! From your MOUNTAIN TOP SPEECH.... See You Soon
Jen
3:10 pm on Wednesday, June 8, 2011
What does his race have to do with anything?
Greg Thrasher
7:33 am on Sunday, June 5, 2011
Rebecca,
What does the hue of my skin or my race have to do with this issue? Apparently because I don't share your views or comport with your opinion on pain and dying I am not fit to live. My belief system values the dignity of all life. I reject the notion that assisted suicide is some noble deed and a progressive movement . I am not interested in being a cheerleader nor engagaing in any manner of hero worship for Dr.Death. I only genuflect to life not death.
Twila Stottlemyer
9:29 am on Sunday, June 5, 2011
Calm down people...sheesh. Greg is right, the man was plain weird. I had the opportunity to view Dr. K. in action and he was a strange duck. I also believe the term serial killer was used correctly. A person whom repeatedly kills.
Natalie Daniels
7:11 pm on Sunday, June 5, 2011
I agree with Greg. I was a Hospice Home Health Aid for many years. I saw amazing dying people nearly everyday. I knew well over three hundred dying people. The great majority still found life to be full of the same things: laughing and crying. Dying people are full of life. Ask them about their lives, their kids and their memories. Life isn't over when we die. I'm surprised at the number of people who seem to be advocating ending life when there is still life to be had.
Jordan Genso
8:34 am on Monday, June 6, 2011
Nobody here is "advocating ending life", they are advocating "letting people decide for themselves whether they should continue living or not". Don't spin the opposition's position- it's intellectually dishonest (like the pro-life individuals who try to label pro-choice groups as being pro-abortion). It's about people having freedom and control over their own lives, and not letting others dictate to them what to do or don't do.
No one wants to take a person who wants to live, and convince them that instead they should want to die. But if a person wants to die, I respect that it is their life, so they should get to decide. In many people's opinion, preventing them from having that option is an injustice. Dr. Kevorkian worked to provide people that option. It was an honorable cause.
Annie Ominous
8:11 pm on Sunday, June 5, 2011
Dr. Kevorkian was a hero and champion of human right(s) to die with dignity on their own terms, not on the terms dictated by anyone else.
Greg, cheap shot playing the 'hue' card. You probably would not have to had played it if your original post was not so full of hyperbole and idiocy. Post industrial serial killer? Do you run a drama club? Work for Fox "News"?
Natalie, everyone who is dying deserves to choose when they go. If they choose to go naturally, great, but overwhelmingly, Kevorkian dealt with terminal people, generally in great pain or suffering. People in these conditions are NOT full of life. They are weary and tired of suffering. Who are any of u to take away an option to end their suffering?
Greg Thrasher
9:59 am on Monday, June 6, 2011
Excuse me I did not insert race into this discourse perhaps you should not as well with your cheap shot retorts.. BTW I am not a thespian nor full of hyperbole or idiocy nor an employee of FOX News... Of course when people lack the depth and skills to measure up with substantive comments I expect personal insults including yours Annie.
Please threaten me with some logic on this issue instead of anger and emotional nonsense ...
Kelly
8:49 am on Monday, June 6, 2011
The Bible views suicide as equal to murder, which is what it is—self-murder. God is the only one who is to decide when and how a person should die. I don't believe we should hook up a body to many machines to try to keep it alive when in the natural god would call that person home but it is not Jack's decision to determine when a person should go and yes it is his hand that ends that life even if that choice came from another. Someone racked in pain who was not able to think clearly for themselves. God is far wiser and knows the hour of our death. That is his chosing and to elevate yourself above him and make that decision for Him is wrong. God orchestrates every event in our lives—even suffering, temptation and sin. “We know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him. Christians serve a God who has lived on this earth and been through trauma, temptation, bereavement, torture, hunger, thirst, persecution and even execution. Perhaps Jack's heart was in the right place but it was though warped and skewed thinking. He leveated himself to God's postion and in the end may have done more damage than the good that God is able to work out through all suffering even if it is hard to see at the time.
Jordan Genso
3:26 pm on Monday, June 6, 2011
"God is the only one who is to decide when and how a person should die."
I'm sorry, but I can't let that statement go unchallenged, as it is quite dangerous. That is the same exact justification that certain groups use when they decide to let their children die rather than take them to the doctor for basic medical treatment.
It is a very scary idea to promote- that individuals are not responsible for keeping themselves alive. The mindset that "I'm not going to die unless God decides it" leads to incredibly reckless behavior.
You are free to spread such speech, but I can not morally stay silent when faced with it.
Jen
3:15 pm on Wednesday, June 8, 2011
Most people just don't get it. He was not saying we should kill sick people, disabled people, or denying anyone's right to life. He was saying that a person should have the right to decide when they've had enough pain and suffering. Personally, as a Catholic I do not agree with him, I believe life begins at conception and ends at natural death (not being hooked up to a bunch of stuff and calling that life).....this is what I believe...this is how I live MY life.....however, everyone is not Christian or Catholic and they are not bound by my religious beliefs, and should not be bound by anyone's. He was about freedom of choice. He never forced anyone and he didn't say people should do it...he said people should have the option. If you don't want the option, don't take it. He was NOT a serial killer...he was moved by compassion.
Kelly
9:02 am on Monday, June 6, 2011
Not sure why because of someone's comment and photo you feel the need to play the race card Rebecca? You then start quoting MLK as if all black people agree with everything MLK ever said and all blacks should agree with him. Why is someone's opinion a matter of race unless that happens to be the topic of discussion. If that "belief to die for" is warped then it makes that comment not so wise doesn't it. MLK made that comment in regards to standing up for the equal right of all despite their color not in the context of killing other human beings despite it being their wish.
Greg Thrasher
12:25 pm on Monday, June 6, 2011
Kervorian's efforts only enhanced the prospects of insurance companies creating policies that calculate the worth of a life into a financial equation.... When a culture designates life as a financial value then Jack's suicide machine evolves into a cost analysis equation not a device that values the dignity of life but a device which measures the costs of staying alive..... I will always object to any killing machines even those hiding under the cloak of being progressive and dignified.. The living deserve to live ...
Jordan Genso
3:42 pm on Monday, June 6, 2011
"When a culture designates life as a financial value..."
Really? Can you really not see that you are blatantly ignoring the other side's position?
This argument is all about freedom. Explain to me why someone should not be free to decide to die if they want to. If someone is in so much physical pain, that they find continued life to be a punishment, and would prefer to end it, what gives you the right to take away their freedom to do so?
"The living deserve to live..."
Yeah, they also deserve to live free.
Jesse Williams
4:18 pm on Monday, June 6, 2011
Greg, I have to jump in here and say that your whole insurance company argument is moot. Insurance companies in the United States are for-profit ventures. EVERYTHING has a value, life included. Why do you think they refuse to cover prior ailments? Or why they can and do drop people when they suddenly because seriously ill or come to have a critical disease. The insurance companies look at human beings as nothing more than sacks of money, and everything is weighed by how much profit can be had, piece by piece, over the long term. Assisted suicide did not affect this in either direction.
Kelly
4:00 pm on Monday, June 6, 2011
Jordan saying there is a God who is in control is not saying I am an advocate of children not recieving medical care. That is a tad bit of a stretch! I do not support any Christina Science theology. I'm am saying that God has plans for your life and when he is ready to call you home he will. To intentionally facilitate that at an earlier time is wrong. He has blessed us with Doctors and others who are skilled to help us stay healthy and well. God can chose to allow your poor choices to get you there sooner if he so desires. If you neglect your body and take risks to faciltiate your death or chose suicide we also have a God who may let your free will suffer the consequences of your actions. I am not advocating a lack of personal responsiblity. I can state that there is a God who is fully in control at ALL times, loves us, wants the best for us but also gives us free will. However he also provided us with a guide book for operating wisely within that free will.
Greg Thrasher
4:08 pm on Monday, June 6, 2011
I am under no obligation to be an advocate for another's opinion...More importantly it is not my opinion this is an argument of any kind nor is it about freedom. My position has been quite direct I reject people like Kervorian and others who support assisted suicide . I have not offer any opinions on suicide nor am I taking anything from another.
Again I will reiterate ' The living deserve to live"...
Jesse Williams
4:21 pm on Monday, June 6, 2011
The living deserve to live, eh? What of the dying?
As a staunch Libertarian, I must toe the party line and change your quote: "The living deserve to choose (everything)"
This includes the option to choose life or not (for themselves), to choose hateful speech, to choose religion (even a hateful religion), to choose political stances, to choose to educate or remain ignorant, to choose to drink or abstain, smoke or not smoke, exercise or not exercise. I don't think any single of these options are any more or less important, because they all come down to individual freedoms, without which our country is worthless.
Jordan Genso
9:09 pm on Monday, June 6, 2011
Greg,
I did not ask you to be an advocate for the other side, I am asking you to address the other side's argument (if you prefer the term 'debate' or 'discussion' or something else, that is fine too, but I see a conversation like the one taking place as being aptly described by the term 'argument' with no negative connotation).
You can state that this is not about freedom, but that is exactly the crux of the position I am taking, and simply pretending that freedom is not relevant to the discussion does not make it true. I have supported my position on how this is about freedom, so if you state that it isn't, defend that claim.
Here's my interpretation of the conversation so far:
You- My position is X.
Me- I disagree with X, because people should have the freedom to choose what to do with their own lives.
You- This discussion is not about freedom.
Earlier in the thread, you mentioned that you wanted people to use logic against you (instead of anger and emotional nonsense). Where is the logic in you saying this is not about freedom?
Since you used your excuse to not answer my question, I will ask again: if someone wants to die, why would you want to take away their freedom to do so? (it's about freedom because if you get your way, people don't have that choice)
Greg Thrasher
5:19 pm on Monday, June 6, 2011
Jesse,
Your comments just confirm my premise about insurance companies and their cost containment policies which includes profiling and gender bias underwriting for woman and others...
I am not a staunch Libertarian unlike you I am not compelled to echo another's dogma and propaganda or political agenda ...This issue is not about individual freedoms sorry I cannot frame this narrative to validate your standard scripted talking points..This is about assisted suicide and a person who acted without regard for the essence of life ..Of course when confronted with his own mortality he punted and did not even invoke his own killing machine..
Jesse Williams
5:41 pm on Monday, June 6, 2011
I would say that you've committed a faux pas in your assessment of my views. I am not "compelled to echo another's dogma", I am only compelled to express my own views. it just so happens that my views lie in line profoundly with a political party that I have chosen to back. Also, while I have no script in front of me from which to type, nor am I a talking head with an agenda and a budget, I do feel that talking points are strong. I could turn the table on you, saying that you are also offering a "scripted talking point" from the agenda of the Church (whether you are or are not is beyond me, and I make no such accusations as I am not familiar with you). Just because a person's view mirrors another does not mean that person is using scripted rhetoric.
To the point, I'm not sure how much Dr. Kevorkian was suffering, but regardless, he had the right to choose just as his patients did. Arguing for the essence of life is just as much an ethical debate as arguing for the right to choose. The whole point of our country is that we can agree to disagree (or agree to civil debate, such as this).
I accept your view, despite not agreeing with it, and honestly believe that neither is less valid. In a country of majority rules, time will tell whether this becomes more or less acceptable over time. Neither side has any certainty in that matter.
Greg Thrasher
6:16 pm on Monday, June 6, 2011
My comments about your views are not only on target given your validation of them with this long winded retort neverthless you are correct even cheerleaders have a choice of course Kevorkian did not give his victims any choices regarding their suffering he just executed them with his killing machine...
For the record I am a pagen and the majority in our state has already ruled on the issue of assisted suicide it is illegal in Michigan as in most states in our union.... BTW I am quite certain of this fact...
Jordan Genso
9:16 pm on Monday, June 6, 2011
"of course Kevorkian did not give his victims any choices regarding their suffering he just executed them with his killing machine"
Please explain to me why you believe that his patients did not have a choice. From my understanding, choice is an inherent part of suicide.
If you can't explain how they were lacking in freedom to choose whether to live or die, then that strengthens Jesse's statement about you being in a different realm of reality.
Jesse Williams
6:24 pm on Monday, June 6, 2011
Well, I certainly appreciate you clearing up your spiritual values - though that was outside of my point (and I made a point to illustrate that). The fact is that it would be easy to make assumption about you based on your views as you have about me based on mine. Those assumptions have no basis in reality since we don't know each other, and that was my point.
Also, how did Kevorkian refuse his patients a choice? He just yanked them off the street, strapped them to a machine and slaughtered them while cackling maniacally? No, they came to him, or their families came to him, asking for help. I'm not sure we're playing in the same realm of reality at this point. While the state may have considered it murder under legal definitions, the point you are trying to make is patently false.
And yes, the majority of our state and nation have, currently, banned assisted suicide. That does not mean it will remain that way forever. Stem cell research is making a wonderful come back, despite the efforts of the conservative crowd. Change happens.
Greg Thrasher
7:00 pm on Monday, June 6, 2011
Not looking for a hug from you or validation of my spiritual values just a point of clarity for the record since you inserted a word about the Church...To be candid I am not interested in any personal relationships in an internet forum..I use these platforms to express opinions and discourse...
The question of Kevorkian's recruiting methods also leave me pause but I will save that chatter for another day..Clearly you nor I have any basis to speculate on the families motives. I don't know what realm of reality you are not right now but I am quite sober and chatting on the internet presently..
None of my talking points are false you and others just lack any worthy objections to them. But lets just deal with facts..Michigan bans assisted suicude as does the majority of states in our union..The good doctor did not execute himself with his killing machine as he did others..Stem cell research has nothing to do with this issue in any remote or salient fashion. Change does not just happen it is more often an outcome of a number of moving parts...
I am in demand gotta go....Enjoy the nite
Jordan Genso
9:22 pm on Monday, June 6, 2011
So every doctor that prescribes medicine to their patients- do you believe they are hypocrites if they don't take that medicine themselves? If a doctor gives an overweight patient Lipitor for their cholesterol, yet that doctor does not have high cholesterol herself (and therefore has no need for Lipitor), are you going to criticize her?
Dr. Kevorkian helped those who wanted to die succeed in that desire. If he did not want to die, it would've been wrong for him to use his own machine. That should be an easy concept to understand. Or is this one of those "unworthy" objections?
michael J
9:33 pm on Monday, June 6, 2011
Any body, want to talk about LIFE, living to the fullest, .25 coneys were the coolest thing in Clawson .
Greg Thrasher
9:42 pm on Monday, June 6, 2011
Jordan,
You are simply out of your element on this issue..It is apparent in the manner in which you frame your shallow arguments aka excuses ...You cannot go off script so when I objected to your attempt to make this a 'freedom' analysis you got emotional and more incoherent in your logic...
Do you ever read what you post i.e ." From my understanding, choice is an inherent part of suicide"..What exactly is your understanding of dead suicide victims ..What realm are you in?? You spoke in detail with them after they died??
Again your questions have no merit in part because they are not revelant to the issue at hand which is assisted suicide as executed by a serial killer Jack Kevorkian..Your weak attempts to create a narrative based upon a hollow premise simply has no currency with me nor in our state and other venues which outlaw assisted suicide...
None of your empty and impotent chatter about 'freedom" matters here.. What we have here is a simple proposition Life or Death... Your hero was a garden variety serial killer not a noble artist nor an iconic man just a rotten coward whose body of work violated the essence and sacred being of life...
Enjoy the nite..I now tire of your circular questions and lack of ability to value and appreciate my learned wisdom...Stay away from killing machines they don't give out refunds
Jordan Genso
7:11 am on Tuesday, June 7, 2011
You make statements, and refuse to back them up with logic/reasoning, even after being requested to do so. Rather than simply stating "you got emotional and more incoherent in your logic", show me where I'm incoherent. You can't, and so you won't, but you apparently don't have the intellectual honesty to let that stop you from posting it.
You can ask me any question, and I will answer it. I think that fairly describes the difference between us. Since in the post above, you asked if I have spoken with dead people after they died. The answer is 'no'.
I think it is a strange conclusion to think that someone has spoken with the dead simply because they stated that suicide is a choice people make. It would be like if someone said "drunk driving is a choice" and someone else interpreted that as the person having interviewed drunk drivers to see if they chose to drink and drive. Life would be quite bizarre if such basic statements led to such unsupported conclusions.
You stated that my questions are circular. You haven't actually answered any question I've asked though, so it is irrational to state they are circular.
One more thing: "I now tire of your... lack of ability to value and appreciate my learned wisdom"
Look up the logical fallacy "argument from authority".
carrie chambers
10:16 pm on Monday, June 6, 2011
Greg I believe that you need a big ol glass of wine and a few deep breathes...just breath my friend.
I see that you have said Goodnight a couple times but you keep posting more. This must really make you upset as you try to demean other beliefs, opinions and posts. As you may be passionate on this view and its clear that you would not of called Mr Kavorkian if you were in that position of suffering, but thats you. Who are you to take that away from anyone?!
LOL your learned wisdom, THAT's funny!
Greg Thrasher
10:40 pm on Monday, June 6, 2011
Carrie,
I loathe wine and I never exhale others do that in my presence....More importantly people of your ilk just won't let me go..lol,lol,lol
I am not demeaning the beliefs of people I don't know...This is chat forum not a fireside chat with friends... I am not taking anything from anybody..Our state has unlawed assisted suicide perhaps you should lobby them and stop demonizing me simply because I have an opinon that does not comport with yours and others who validate and make excuses for a post industrial serial killer who exhibited contempt for the very essence of life...This man executed people with a killing machine he left bodies in hotels, parks and storerooms...He was a selfish creature who died in a better venue he left his victims in.. Feel free to drink my glass of wine maybe it will make you passionate about me and my perspectives.....
carrie chambers
11:17 pm on Monday, June 6, 2011
Ohh I'm afraid it would take more than a glass of wine. I think that is it classless to write on post that a man who just died is a serial killer. YOUR opinions are well stated its just a shame you don't respect others opinions.
Greg Thrasher
9:30 am on Tuesday, June 7, 2011
I think it is classless to attack someone just because they express an opinion that is not shared by you..I respect the opinions of others I just have my own.
carrie chambers
10:07 am on Tuesday, June 7, 2011
Greg, I hope I didnt hurt your feelers, no attacks here.
I did notice that you had some choice words in describing Dr. Death. A post industrial serial killer, selfish creature, a strange creature and a rotten coward. They might be opinions but they are also attacks on a man that is no longer with us.
Im curious when you had the chance to meet him, did you give him your opinion on what he did or did you just wait till he died to attack him?!
Natalie Daniels
12:26 am on Tuesday, June 7, 2011
It is my OPINION that Dr. Death was a serial killer. Please respect my opinion. Greg, I applaud you for intelligently stating your opinion.
Greg Thrasher
9:38 am on Tuesday, June 7, 2011
Natalie,
Thank You....It leaves me pause when people who don't know start directing personal attacks just because I have my own perspective. In this forum my race has been attacked, a woman implied I should die, I have been called a taliban, an idiot etc....Yet wonderful souls like you help me keep hope alive..
Enjoy the day..
Greg Thrasher
10:16 am on Tuesday, June 7, 2011
Carrie,
As a Free Black man in America being attacked, held in contempt and insulted is just part of the equation of course I never lose sleep over it nor do I need a glass of wine to wash down the ignorance.
Interesting whenever I would encounter good ole Jack he would often avoid looking me in the eye and responding to my comments.Not only was he lacking in people skills but I did smell the stench of 'negrophobia' in his presence as well.
carrie chambers
10:49 am on Tuesday, June 7, 2011
I got a letter in the mail the other day..It was so full of venom, anger, hate ...
My reaction was not fear but one of sadness that a human being would have that much pain and hate towards another human being..
So sad...
Your right Greg, life is too short to be so angry. Black, white or purple.
Greg Thrasher
11:04 am on Tuesday, June 7, 2011
Carrie,
I get a lot of hate mail some hand delivered to my home...It is never a good feeling to be on the end of such hate. I do understand the emotion and passion people have regarding this issue . I have no problem with anyone having whatever opinion they have on any issue. I just draw the line when people get personal and start to attack the messenger(me).
If I have offended you or anyone on this site with regard to this issue I regret it. I am interested only in providing my views about assisted suicide and Dr. Jack Kevorkian's role .
Enjoy the day
carrie chambers
12:39 pm on Tuesday, June 7, 2011
Greg I agree with you! yay, lol.
Getting hate mail because of your views and opinions is a little overboard and the thought that someone is hand delivering hate mail is rather uncomfortable for anyone. I imagine it’s the price that you pay for having strong views and telling people them and knowing some people can’t let things go. Although I don’t agree with some of your points, I'm not that kind of person to take this all to heart. I have learned to pick my battles. Being able to speak your views is a great benefit of living here.
I didn’t feel attacked or offended myself; I was defensive over the name calling issue (of Dr. K). I just felt that went too far being called a creapy serial killer and that’s when I stated my feelings. I dont try to change anyones views, I dont want to attack anyone for there views, I will try to understand yours and learn from them. Than I move on.
No hate mail on this side of the fence.
Greg Thrasher
2:18 pm on Tuesday, June 7, 2011
Carrie,
I respect the instense nature of opinions on this subject matter in part because assisted suicide is truly a profound issue.
Of course I don't appreciate the collateral drama associated with the passion of this issue including the unwarranted derogatory verbiage and the veil overtures of sanctioning of my Birmingham Patch Local Voice column and blogging privledges.
In spite of it all we soldier on because of the magnitude and life altering nature of this issue.
Enjoy the day....
Kimberly Middlewood
3:37 pm on Tuesday, June 7, 2011
Members of the public will get a chance to remember and say good-bye to Jack Kevorkian, the controversial assisted suicide advocate and longtime Royal Oak resident who died Friday at the age of 83.
A public memorial service is set for 9:30 a.m. Friday at White Chapel Memorial Park Cemetery in Troy, his attorney Mayer Morganroth said Monday afternoon.
michael J
4:08 pm on Tuesday, June 7, 2011
Amen, Put the Puppy to rest, whoops not the right term, It turned into a personality attack, one after another, amen amen, why don't you people meet and have a couple rounds of shots, I am sure it will rekinder some old flames.
Dr. Ryan Cooper
11:02 am on Wednesday, June 8, 2011
Imagine if Dr. Jack, as brilliant as he was, would have focused his energy, passion and creativity towards preventing disease and/or finding valid solutions to healing... Imagine if he would have learned to raise children that grow stronger and healthier with age and adulthood rather then deteriorating and developing unbearable disease... I think this world would be a much better place.
Lindsay Leppek
12:51 pm on Wednesday, June 8, 2011
Good point Ryan, yet I'd like to point out the fact that Physician assist in suicide more than people realize. A loved one is laying in a hospital, near the end and in pain, and the doctor suggests turning up the morphine drip just enough to eliminate the pain, but also enough to let the person slip away. I think too many doctors have such little time, too often issues we as patients are even solved because let's say the "symptoms" don't fit into a nic elittle category that easily measures up to a certain pill to take. The are alot of flaws with doctors today, and I think insurance companies, attorneys, and pharmacueticals have alot to do with it.
Natalie Daniels
4:46 pm on Wednesday, June 8, 2011
Anytime Greg. Take care!
Natalie Daniels
4:46 pm on Wednesday, June 8, 2011
Anytime, Greg. Take care!
M. Ashby
11:07 pm on Friday, December 9, 2011
R. I .P. JACK YOU WERE A MAN WITH A HEART OF GOLD TO PEOPLE IN NEED OF YOUR HELP.
SBurns
3:42 pm on Thursday, January 12, 2012
As far as I'm concerned, what Jack did wasn't any different than hospice other than the patient didn't have to "live" in a semi-conscience state. Hospice medicates a patient to a point they don't know what's going on anyway. I know this for a fact because they did it to my dad last year.
Sherry Brantley
5:22 pm on Thursday, January 12, 2012
Well, if we're going to talk about what is 'legal' and what is 'illegal' it was once LEGAL to: Beat your wife, Own Slaves, etc. AND it was once ILLEGAL to: Teach slaves to read, allow women to vote, or consider African-Americans as 'human.' As the saying goes: All that is moral is not legal, and all that is legal is not moral!" Which is why PEOPLE make make and take a stand, sometimes alone... to effect positive change for all! If YOU don't want the service of assisted suicide, then of course, CHOOSE to NOT use it. But for those who want even THAT CHOICE... Just allow THEM that DIGNITY. Not sure why others think THEIR 'way' should be 'EVERYONE'S way. Just create what YOU want in life, and allow others to do the same. (When it's not infringing upon others of course, so I'm NOT talking about letting pedophiles committ atrocious acts or rapists 'do their thing.) Hopefully I'm addressing Civil-Minded adults?
ecnalubma
6:01 pm on Thursday, January 12, 2012
This discussion should sicken both sides of this debate. If you support this cause then you have picked the wrong person to follow. Doctor Death avoided any help when evaluating his subjects. It is fact that he put to death at least 5 people who had no terminal illness, and a third of his victims did not suffer pain. He reported that he didn’t even talk to his first victim before he assisted her in death and to carry out his sinister plan. Many hang their hat on this guy who at best was a miserable failure in the profession of pathology. His biography shows a guy who at best was an author of fiction and the macabre.
Joy from Brooklyn
11:28 pm on Thursday, January 12, 2012
Thank you!
I believe there was someone more recently who suffered from mental depression, whom he also put to death.
Which, of course along with each and every one of those lives he took... leads to the ultimate question...
where does one draw the line, when there is no moral compass in the first place?
No sense of right or wrong, just: 'I have the right to do what I please' ?
What would have been next?
I had a bad day at work, I just got divorced, I'm in pain because I lost someone I love, I'm distressed because my car totaled...I've had a bad hair day.....
Hello?.... Dr. Kevorkian?....
Sound far-fetched? Try this one on for size...
how about someone with power of attorney being able to decide if ending someone else's life is "suitable" and "appropriate", because someone is mentally ill.
Or just... because he or she feels like it...
and of course, that's okay...
everyone has the right to choose......................
Sherry Brantley
6:30 pm on Thursday, January 12, 2012
And yet, who can say who 'suffered pain' or not? Not all 'pain' is physical. Sometimes there's a mental and or spiritual 'pain' that gnaws away at a person each moment of the day. It becomes difficult to think clearly, see a way out, have hope. Any situation or circumstance can bring this about for people. Yet instead of seeing 'death' or the end of 'this' life as having met it's demise, some of us want to cling to it... no matter what, and we want others to also cling to it... no matter the cost. Just because technology CAN keep us alive forever, doesn't mean that it should. There is such a thing as a 'quality' of life, and not everyone wants to cling to the 'quantity' of life. Is it at all possible to simply bless those who make their choices.. whether we ever understand them or not... and move on with OUR choices? Or must we continue to malign, condemn, criticize and complain about choices others make in their own lives? Hmmmnn... it reminds me of the words of an old song: "OH yeah, life goes on.. even after the thrill of living is gone!"
Brenda
12:09 am on Friday, January 13, 2012
Well, I'm 47 and as of last year, I have buried my entire family. My beloved grandmother, my aunt who was like a 2nd mom, and my two parents. None of them went quickly and none of them were "at peace" when they died. It is a horrendous experience to watch a loved one suffer and to be able to do nothing. We had all the legal documents saying no heroic measures and I was given all the power to make any and all medical decisions, but there were doctors/assisted living nurses who either found "loop holes" or blatantly disregarded my wishes to not force feed, give antibiotics, etc. It was a nightmare and I fought hard to make sure my loved ones were given the dignity that they deserved. There was no comforting them--no drugs strong enough to combat the extreme pain.....just months of laying there in and out of a coma. If I had allowed my dog to suffer like that for the last 4-5 months, I would have been brought up on felony animal abuse charges, but it was ok to allow humans to? Once you go through a nightmare like I went through---not once, but 4 times----you realize that our society has GOT to figure out a way to help terminally ill people (who so choose it) to end their lives in a humane and dignified way.
Sherry Brantley
1:16 am on Friday, January 13, 2012
I hear you Brenda! And until we truly realize that we are all here for a 'time' and not 'all time,' until we begin to take a REALISTIC view and understanding of dying, crossing over, passing, etc, we won't be able to take that next step. For instance, even TODAY, with cell phones, Ipads, Facebook and Twitter, MANY PEOPLE do NOT have LIFE Insurance, Which is really... death insurance. We spend more time deciding what reality show to watch, than we do on making sure our families will be taken care of, and arrangements made PRIOR to it being 'that time.' That is one thing that should be paid for, and taken care of long before it's needed, and instead, we all go on, as if we'll live forever. Then, our families are left to pick up the pieces of our not having done what we should've been mindful of. And YES, choosing if you want to use a service such as that, is a part of that equation. And just for the record, I don't watch t.v.... reality or otherwise, I DO have life insurance, and my wishes are in writing in a legal format. Alas, I wonder how many of these 'contributors' can say even that? But we are not here to judge or condemn one another. We're here to uplift, inspire, motivate and appreciate. And again... whether you understand someone's stance or not, at least have the grace to allow them to have it, and make it in peace.
Danny Stillinger
4:17 am on Friday, January 13, 2012
I backed Kervorkian and I hope somebody helped him out!
ecnalubma
5:15 pm on Friday, January 13, 2012
Rants go on and on here. Dr. Death was the wrong guy to follow as the Poster Child for this cause. People want dignity when their life ends, only to find the insurance company standing by the plug ready to pull it. I have seen many times, as recently as this past December, the insurance company wanting to withhold care and having the families told that they need to make sure things are in place for this persons death. But wait, they are here today, giving meaningful interaction with their families. Until the PROFIT motive is removed from end of life decisions who can you really trust? Dr. Death was denounced by almost every expert, association, and crusader in this cause. If you read what he authored, and watch his taped interviews you will see what a real crack pot he was. Good riddance to bad trash. Good luck in finding a real leader for your cause.