Kathy, I think the comments about "those who don't BELONG" have more to do with the fact of the matter that Pointers are subsidizing non-residents and the degradation of property values when people don't want to live in/move to the Pointes because of this.

I like the pitchforks and torches idea. Arise and follow me to Home Depot!

Katie, I think what you say may be true. I hope it is. But in 17 years living here, I've heard it often and will continue to question it every time.

We appreciate these questions. All students found to be non-residents or to have provided fraudulent documents are removed from the school system. Much of the information we require for enrollment is confidential, which restricts our ability to use community volunteers for this purpose. We will be meeting with the Residents for Residency to discuss additional ideas related to our policies and procedures, determining areas where we may improve our methods of verifying residency. These are subject to State and Federal guidelines that are again found on our website. There will always be people who will test the system, but we will continue to check residency and investigate tips.

Surprisingly, this GPPSS statement is not true:
"In order to attend school in The Grosse Pointe Public School System, you must reside within district boundaries."

The devil is in the "What students are eligible" details and is based on lenient state/federal statute: http://gpschools.schoolwires.net/176710911156150/lib/176710911156150/Student_Res_and_Enrl.pdf

Do your own research.

I wonder if the school district can tell us how many of the students who were expelled for non -residency were in North end schools versus South end schools.
Also. thank you to Mr. Hackelman for posting the policy. With respect to item 3.
" 3. A student who lives with a parent or full legal guardian who lives with another person in the district.
In other words, the parent or legal guardian does not own or rent his or her residence, but lives with
another, and the student lives with them."
Can the school district address which federal or state law they rely on for this statement? If I read this correctly there should be no concern for borderless schools. Just say your mom lives with a friend and you're in?????

Please click the link Jay Hackleman provides - a student does not need to be a resident to attend GPPSS. The information listed is clearly written and may put out some of these fires.

Peter Callert of Shelby-Utica: No one here in this discussion is interested in your non-constructive, disgusting and outdated diatribe.

Smacks of jealousy and white-guilt, to me.

Respectfully, I do not agree with Katie's comment, below. "No one here in this discussion" includes me and I would prefer to speak for myself. Racism exists. Is everyone concerned about residency racist? Of course not. But I don't believe Peter Callert is wrong to question.

It appears that Peter has still not grown up from the days of the class of 1979 - GPN

i thought the idea was to keep out the non-residents, no? produce the proper forms to prove where you live and you're safe regardless of race, gender, religion or anything else people may try to read into this subject. follow the rules and be able to back it up, problem solved.

Diane - Please keep your personal comments about the school board to yourself.

Hey Romey keep your personal comments to yourself. This is the comment section where people are allowed to assert their opinions.

As school board members both Tom and Cindy have been responsive an very helpful to me.

The board is going to look into it and I am confident they will improve what they can. I think part of the solution is educating the public that what they think residency means is not how the state defines it. In some respects, the school's hands are tied. Look to Lansing, GPPeeps.

V. M.

2:22 pm on Tuesday, July 24, 2012

I somewhat agree. While our problem is residency, and yes, I support Residents for Residency. All of you need to remember the big picture. The continued effect this has in the classroom. MRSPirateLarz is right, in respect to parent/teacher/admin/student participation? We must all do our jobs!!!! Unfortunately, those who do not, and may never have, an invested interest in this community and the education of our children, really do not care what is happening here.
One parent at last nights meeting mentioned an example of cheating. If your student cheats on their homework or test, and gets caught, they are repremanded. So if a student cheats their way into our school system, what should we do!!!??????
When we allow this, what message are we teaching our children.
Just ask your students about what goes on at school, and really listen to them. They will tell you about the bragging about cheating the system that goes on.The adminstration, would rather lie to the residents than correct this issue.
Lying is Lying. Cheating is Cheating. Dishonest is dishonest. What are we teaching our children???

V.M. - Those who are found to be cheating the system are removed. That is a powerful lesson. Help us do our job by reporting those in question. If you have any concerns about possible violations of our residency requirements, please call 313/432-3083. All calls received are confidential, and while all tips are investigated, due to student privacy legislation there will be no follow-up provided to those who call in tips.

Well Pete, lets see if the school board does their job. I for one, am sick of C. Fenton, using the $80,000 excuse, for not having proof of residency. It has been his scare tactic for the last 4 or so years.
There are plenty of us that work in the school system, live here and are backround checked and fingerprinted that would be more than happy to provide our services for
free, to check residency. The board can easily train us, what to look for, question etc.
and even have us sign a waiver of confidentiality if necessary. Oh!! Poof!! just like that, the $80,000 excuse can be gone. I challange the Board Office. Their are plenty of us available here, and all of us have an investment in this community,the education and most importantly our Children!!! Thank you!!

Bill. Yes.

The easiest way to not make mistakes is not to look for them. Good numbers as often reveal bad processes as good results.

What year did they reduce or completely eliminate the support staff that was in the residency checking office? Was it end of 2010 school year????

John, now you're on to something! Somehow I don't expect that you'll find that much with a check of library passes, but a check of park passes might make a fascinating study!

Don't get me started on the park passes! The people who run the park pass system do not seem to be capable of operating it at all! Long story short, I'm on my third park pass since moving to the woods and each year I've had to provide paper work to prove that I live here, who lives in my house and that it is NOT a rental property! Sheesh... but back to the topic at hand. Where and who IS doing the actual residency checks? When I orginally enrolled my son, the person barely looked at the paper work! I could have easily cheated and got him in without being a resident! And then there are other stories of how much paperwork, time, etc... that people had to do just to prove that their child DID belong in the system. Doesn't make sense!

Ironic that your name is after a window blind company. You would have to be blind to not see that abuse is going on in our school system. I have said it once before on this site and I will say it again, this is all a result of rental properties in the area. It has nothing to do with race unless one race happens to consists largely of renters, then that would just make it a coincidence. White or black, renters do not make attempts to make a community better. They may want things to be better but they will never contribute to a community like an owner will because they don't have as much vested. The more transient a community becomes, the worse it becomes.

I am not blind, Bradley. What is the abuse? Can you give a single anecdote, even, beyond something some guy told you his kid told him? And while I agree a community of owners is better than one of renters, what's your solution to rental properties? Should good Grosse Pointers who need to sell real estate fall on their swords and take enormous financial hits in the interest of keeping housing owner-occupied?

The district is changing, to be sure, like every other community in Michigan. You can't stop change, which is one reason these exercises in denying it are such a waste of time. Residents for Residency see a less-white Grosse Pointe and says, "These people can't possibly be here legally." It's probably less terrifying to them than considering the fact they probably are.

It's 1% that has been caught, for all anyone knows there could be another 9% that hasn't. Would 10% non-residents make you care about the problem and who your Grosse Pointe tax dollars are being spent on?

i've been asking that question for years.

AGREED! Drop Harper woods! They are not Grosse Pointe, why should they go to our schools! And I would wager a guess that the largest group of people who are "cheating" are using Harper Woods addresses.

The school district boundaries were drawn 90 years ago before Harper Woods became a city and before I-94 was built. The district map is shown here:
http://gpschools.schoolwires.net/176710723115930483/lib/176710723115930483/_Files/gppssdistrictmap.pdf

The children who have a parent or guardian who lives inside this area are our students.

Rebecca, you have a good point. I had forgotten that piece of information. However, perhaps it would not be a bad idea to consider re-drawing those lines?

Yes, but Rebecca, Harper Woods residents who attend our school, DO NOT PAY OUR TAXES!! Time to drop them!!

The problem is a lot of people go and post things in public forums without doing any fact checking themselves. The People that live in Harper Woods do pay GP school taxes and Harper Woods school taxes. They pay more in taxes then most Grosse pointers that live west of mack. The other problem with getting rid of Harper Woods is we would lose 8,000 per student the state gives. So either cuts would have to me made to schools if not the closing of at least one school.

Intolerance comes in many forms. Sometimes, it is racism. Sometimes, it is calling those you disagree with racist. Always, it trumps reason with smear and stereotype. Sounds to me like you and Bill would make swell roommates.

Thank you, my work here is done. Have a nice day.

I think there has been a misunderstanding and I hope you can hep clarify it. Board members also left the meeting thinking Mr. Dillon was the group's representative. Dr. Harwood and Ms. Gafa are trying to schedule a meeting with the group. Do you know who they should contact? If so, please email Dr. Harwood at thomas.harwood@gpschools.org

Andrew, can you really do no better than to paint everyone who disagrees with you with the brush of extremism and racism? Certainly someone associated with the Wayne State School of Medicine can argue an issue based upon its merits? After all, this is an election year and we will have enough of the cartoonish invective over the coming few months!

Yeah, because data never under-represents something.

By not enforcing a law you are tacitly condoning and encouraging its disregard.

And to be fair, the pitch-fork campaign was an editorial observation of the proceedings at the BOE meeting, not a suggestion.

Bob,
This was the resolution I presented several years ago, it was not supported by the previous board. The vote was 4-3 against.

Bob, Your right about data. Let's not forget, of those 42 students removed, how many were from one family. Families obviously could have as many as 2 to 4 students each in our schools. So, that's not a great number to brag about. Some time ago, I knew of one family who had 5 children, some at elementary level, middle school and high school. They had a rented home in G.P., then moved, but remained in our district. Three of the 5 children had one address but different last names.!???
Again, if there wasn't an issue, this community would not be so concerned.
So, with respect to our Board Office, it is their responsibility now to do something about it. Otherwise, we would not be voicing our concerns. Thank you.

Patsy, These are my original questions (before I got sucked into wasting time on other people’s issues): 1. What was the follow-up to the persons providing the fraudulent documents? Was it reported? Were there any consequences for the fraud? 2. Could not the GPPSS come up with a process/procedure that the "experts" use to provide to the volunteers? 3. Can the GPPSS come up with a plan to solve the problem or will there always be a reason why residency checks aren't working?
Now I have another question: On the GPPSS link: RE: Student Residency and Enrollment Eligibility Frequently Asked Questions: What students are eligible to enroll in Grosse Pointe Public schools?

“Some of these exceptions appear quite lenient. Why would the district adopt such standards for enrollment eligibility? Answer: All these categories are rooted in either state or federal law. As a public school system we are obligated to comply.”

IS this state/ fed law or is the “rooted in” the GPPSS lenient interpretation of state/fed law?

Bottom line: Relentlessly hold the GPPSS administrators responsible - No excuses - Period. If they're making up their own rules or bending the rules they are flagrantly ignoring the fiduciary responsibility to the taxpayers of the school system - the same taxpayers that pay their salaries.

Fact: Board members are paid a stipend - not a salary. I believe it's $30. No one is paying them salaries. Several of them donate it. They declare their intentions publicly.

Hey Patricia Stefani, way to use your patient's confidential medical records for your own personal motives. I wonder if your employer knew you were doing that. Glad I am not your patient.

And your indiscretion is exactly why we can not have volunteers participate in residency verification.

Patsy,
You go, girl! They need someone like you to take charge of that residency operation. You're absolutely correct. It's an issue of right and wrong. All the limousine liberals are always eager to ignore the facts and play the race card.

I currently reside in GPW, your example is indicative of what has been allow to occur in our community for a while now. The "cheaters" know ways and methods of beating the system, to them its simply getting even with the man. School districts reflect the values of those that live within them. When these values are compromised, we all lose.

Patsy,
Your example is indicative of what is really occuring in our community. The GPSS is virtually under attack each school year by the "cheaters" who know or have learned ways and methods of beating the system, at our expense. As more and more "cheaters" enter our schools, the message we send out is that its "OK" to do so. School districts reflect the values of those who live within them. When we compromise our values, we all lose. I too would gladly volunteer my time to help solve this issue.

Ms. Abke:
Are you an employee or spokesperson for the Grosse Pointe Public Schools? Some of us are asking the school district to respond to questions pertaining to the policy that was posted in a comment here yesterday, but we have received no answers. I believe Ms. Fannon or Mrs. Gafa can cull through these questions and provide official answers to questions posed. The debates can occur after we get some answers.

No, Chris, I am not. I started going to BOE meetings about a year and a half ago re: another issue and continued on as a PTO rep. I find the meetings interesting and have observed quite a bit to base my opinions on. I did not like the board when I started going. I am very pleased with the board right now (since the last election.) I'm hearing the answers to your questions are coming. Stay tuned.

Kathy - thank you for responding as an active and engaged community member.

Chris K - I am responding to questions as a representative of the district, in consultation with Board President Judy Gafa and Dr. Harwood. Thank you for providing these questions. We will use them for an FAQ on our website www.gpschools.org so answers don't get lost in the growing comment section of this article. If I have missed a question, please email me at rebecca.fannon@gpschools.org

Kathy: I began attending school board meetings 12 years ago and even served on the strategic plan committee with perfect attendance so I too have a lot of information and history upon which to base my opinions. All that said, I am reluctant to express them absent more information provided by the school district. I think we need to allow the school district and its representatives to speak on this topic. There are a number of valuable questions here that require answers and I suspect when they are provided by the district the focus of the discussion will shift, as it should, to the topic of ensuring our schools meet the needs of its legally enrolled students.

Agreed!

You are right, Kathy, that everyone needs to "Get the facts." That means reading the guidelines, as you suggest. It means not making assumptions but demanding that we "Get the facts." But it also means asking questions and questioning the answers. For one, you can accept that "only 42" students were found to be non-residents... or you can ask the question "how many students were audited?" and get the next answer that the sample size was "only 247." These are the facts. Perhaps some folks are motivated by fear or racism, but we aren't all. To claim that we are is to summarily dismiss us, just as you complain of being dismissed. Some of us would like to "Get the facts." I don't believe that we have the facts yet. I do believe, though, that the proposal for a random audit of households, as earlier proposed by Judy Gafa, is a good way to go about getting them.

People need to learn to base their thoughts on FACTS and to look for the facts!

Agreed!

I never claimed that everyone concerned about residency rules was racist, John Chronos. Not once. Not even close. In fact I capitalized the word SOME with intention. I claim that some of it was fear-based. I was proven right on the racist claim.

I keep hearing stories that this one heard that kid say... no one knows the results of any investigation (ie. privacy laws) so one can't assume it was ignored. Well, one can - and that is my beef here. One is faulty to assume. I'm saying lets get the facts, stop waiving torches (those that are) and work on the real issue.

All this outrage and energy... yet if Gov. Snyder passes his current legislation, the point is moot. There will be no boundaries. If that is concerning to people, look to Lansing and use your voice there.

And... in the interest of fact gathering, all residents can tune in to the school board meeting broadcast on channel 20 to hear the concerns of the group about residency violations. The meetings are televised at 8:00 a.m. and 8:00 p.m. with the public comment on residency beginning about 1:05 hours after the start of the broadcast, 9:05.

42 students out of 247 audited is 17%, not 1%.

Bradley Coopersmith. Yes.

Mr. Walmeir, perhaps it would interest you to know a very large percentage of our paid employees also live in the district (almsot 50% last time I checked) and pay taxes to support our schools. If you visit our website www.gpschools.org (under Quick Links, click Residency and Enrollment) you will see we are enforcing our policies, not turning our heads. We also welcome ideas on how to improve the procedures, while remaining in compliance with State and Federal guidelines.

Obviously, Mr. Waldmeir, you are NOT a product of this school system or you would have learned to play with the big kids nicely!

Mr. Waldmeir,
I find your posts offensive. Your input might be welcomed if you found a way to say things without aggression, insults, name calling and abuse. Ms. Fannon does not deserve your condescension, nor your attacks. It is common practice to list Detroit as a residence for privacy's sake. Do you imagine you are exposing anything? All you're exposing is yourself. Enough with the bullying.

People are asking for information from the district. It is her job to give it. Don't attack her for doing so. Seriously. Enough.

Once again Mr. Waldmeir, Ms. Fannon is exercising her right to protect her privacy online. I realize you have no conception of this idea, but stop putting people down for doing a SMART thing!

Mom in the Woods - (I'm one too) THANK YOU! I completely agree and think your response was very well put.

Agreed! Thank you Ms. Fannon!

Ms. Ramsey: I called her a paid flack for the GPS district, which she is. I called her out for saying she lives in Detroit when she doesn't. How about a school board non-resident policy critic's right to free speech? What was "defamatory, abusive, obscene, profane or offensive" about that? Flack? All of a sudden you get defensive because a constituent calls her out? Get a grip.

Mr. Waldmeir, I don't think any one has an issue with you calling people out. In fact, I love the fact that you do call people out! I won't answer for Ms. Ramsey on was "defamatory, abusive, obscene, profane or offensive" however I would say, as I have been saying, that it is NOT the fact that you call people out, it is HOW you word your comments that unsettles people so. Your opinions and knowledge can be of great use, it is a shame that it is your wording that causes people to miss what you have to say. And seriously, GET A GRIP about internet privacy!

Bradley: The idea of a contingency plan is an interesting question. What sorts of contingencies do you (or others) believe the district should be prepared to address? If border-less schools become a reality, how do you think the schools and the values of the entire community will be affected what can be done to address these issues proactively? As Mrs. Gafa has indicated below that she and Mr. Walsh and Dr. Harwood worked on the issue extensively last year, I would like to know what contingencies they considered at that time.

Questions I have about school of choice:

I have read that GPPSS spend more than the state allocated amount per pupil. Would students from outside the district that want to attend be required to pay the difference? Can we make them or deny them entry?

Also, capacity issues? Can we log the amount of children within the Pointes and limit our classroom sizes and capacity to those figures only? We would be saying we cannot accept you because there is no more room.

What about entry exams for non-residents? Is that allowable?

There has to be ways to counter this. I refuse to believe we just have to "take it" and that there is nothing we can do. If this breaks down i believe it is simply due to a lack of planning or the school system afraid of being scrutinized for trying to keep people out.

Bradley Coopersmith, re: GPPSS spending more than the state allocated amount per pupil - that IS the major issue. Take a look at your itemized property tax bill. GP property owners have consistently voted to increase their property taxes to give more money to GPPSS so we can have the best schools, equipment, capital,etc. This is above (in addition to) what the state pays back to GP per pupil and ONLY GP property owners pay this additional tax for GP students. Therein lies the issue. If anyone were able to attend GP schools (non-residents) you and I and everyone who pays a property tax bill in GP are subsidizing the education of those that don't belong in the school system because they are not paying the additional amount.

Katie:

Should you have a direct question for the school administration, you may be better served by sending it here:

If I have missed a question, please email me at rebecca.fannon@gpschools.org

Now I'm confused. Diane Smith or Rebecca Fannon?

Also, This is not an 'out of the blue' inquiry for the administration from just my interest - this is in reference to the Patch article GROSSE POINTE TAXPAYING SWIMMERS UNITE, November 28, 2011 in which Brendan Walsh and Rebecca commented, but then we did not hear about any plans or solutions as a follow-up in the article (so everyone interested would know). Perhaps they forgot.

Katie - I do not develop the aquatics schedule, so I have forwarded your question to the appropriate staff member. If you would like to email me your contact information so they can discuss this with you and get you a direct response, my email is rebecca.fannon@gpschools.org. Thank you for this feedback.

Katie:

Sorry if I was not clear. I was just trying to help and point you in a better direction. As you probably know, you can always write directly to a school board member and also a member of the school administration, or even a perticular employee at a particular school. I was just providing (from one of the earlier posts on this thread) one of the school administration employees e-mail, who occasionally comments on the Patch. I am just a poster just like you.

Diane, Rebecca, Thank you.

Mr. Fenton has asked the staff member that coordinates the schedule to see if there is a time in the afternoon where we could add another adult swim to compliment those already provided early morning and evening. Please remember that first priority for scheduling the school pools goes to student activities, but we are trying to accomodate your very reasonable request. Thank you!

Rebecca, Thank you for the follow-up on pool scheduling...Hopefully it will be in the very very late afternoon as a many of us don't get out of the office until 5pm. At any rate the effort is appreciated and if it doesn't work out for me, perhaps it will be beneficial for some of the seniors in the community or those who do not work. Thank you. Kate.

Bradley,

oops. Really Sorry! and I completely agree with what you are saying.

May I suggest you join the Facebook group, Michigan Citizens Against School of Choice. You will find many people discussing the past and current legislation and actions of Governor Snyder. Under the previous proposed legislation the answer to your questions were: can't require entry exams, has to be a lottery system, no extra tuition could be charged but yes, we could claim we were at capacity. That bill has been quashed and the Governor is trying a new approach by forming a state level committee to review the entire State Aid Act so everything is back on the table again. Join the group, it's facilitated by Kate Barr, who has been actively lobbying in Lansing for the past year on this issue.

Bradley and Katie
As the bill was written last year we would of been able to do exactly as you stated in your previous post. The district staffs to enrollment, we would of declared the district had no capacity and therefore not admit students. The millages that were voted on 3 years ago would be the "extra" money that is spent per pupil, those tax dollars stay here in Grosse Pointe and do not go to Lansing.
Yes there was a discussion of could a non-resident student be charged the difference as a tuition. The Senate Ed Committee did not answer me when I brought this up. It is something the disricts legal council would have to look at.
I would politely disagree about the distict being afraid of being scrutinized, as Grosse Pointe was very vocal about Mandated School of Choice and networked with many other disticts to prevent the Mandate. We also lost best money practices this year, because the Board and Administration refused to particpate in School of Choice.

These are all good and practical questions about the impact of dollars and cents on a school system that has been built by residents being wiling to provide extra tax dollars, most recently for massive building projects and improvements, but what will happen to our community values as more students who enter the system are renters and as observed above not necessarily invested in the community. What sorts of contingency plans need to be developed to preserve our community values that are also played out in our schools? If mandatory school of choice become a reality how do we express our identity as Grosse Pointers and ensure our children take away some of the community values that has made this community a strong and a desirable place to live and raise a family? Have those school administrators involved considered this aspect and if they should what values do we as Grosse Pointers identify as important that need to be considered and preserved for our school community?

Forewarned is forearmed. Certainly it is not necessary to know the details of Gov. Snyder's plan before taking action, any more than it is necessary to know the date of an epidemic before preparing for the emergency. A proactive plan to combat "schools of choice" would include an early alliance of like-minded school districts and preemptive engagement with the Michigan legislature and the governor's office. My expectation is that the steps taken and the steps to be taken, would be communicated or communicable by the School Board. Perhaps this has already taken place. If not, it is certainly anything but premature to communicate it again and now.

Lisa,
What dress code???????? Do we have one???????
You need an administration that is going to ENFORCE THE RULES!!!!!
We have been complaining, again, for years, about how the students come dressed for school. They want to make it a issue of being able to express their culture.
What culture has their pants hanging off their bottoms???? Look, rich, middle class, or poor, has nothing to do with coming to school dressed properly and looking somewhat polished!
Another issue, just like residency, that does not get addressed!!!
Thanks Lisa for all your hard work and concern!!!

Our schools do have a dress code. Please check the school's handbook or website for specifics as there are slight variations by school. For example, here is a summary of one of our middle school's dress codes: http://gpschools.schoolwires.net/177020117124431103/site/default.asp
Here is a link to the elementary handbook -- see page 9 for dress code http://gpschools.schoolwires.net/17671031694533317/lib/17671031694533317/elementary%20handbook%202011-12.pdf

I would love to see a stricter dress code at the middle and high school levels! My kids aren't there yet, but some of the "outfits" I see crossing the street for Parcells and coming home from North are absolutely ridiculous! I often wonder while waiting at the traffic light "Gee, did your mom see you before you left this morning?", or "They're going to let you in the door with that on?"

Katie,
Good question! I think Harper Woods residents pay their tax to H.W.
However, we get the money for the student(s) who attend G.P. Schools.
Does anyone know differently??
Thanks

Yes. The portion of Harper Woods that goes to GPPSS pays our hold harmless, sinking fund and debt taxes, as they are a part of our district. They also pay taxes for Grosse Pointe library AND for the Harper Woods library. Also remember that when our families purchased their homes in that section of Harper Woods, they did so with the understanding they would attend GPPSS.